13:01:06 <alinefm> #startmeeting
13:01:06 <alinefm> #meetingname scrum
13:01:06 <kimchi-bot> Meeting started Wed Jun  1 13:01:06 2016 UTC.  The chair is alinefm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:01:06 <kimchi-bot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
13:01:06 <kimchi-bot> The meeting name has been set to 'scrum'
13:01:32 <alinefm> #info Agenda
13:01:33 <alinefm> #info 1) Status
13:01:33 <alinefm> #info 2) Open discussion
13:01:33 <alinefm> anything else?
13:01:36 <danielhb> no
13:01:36 <pvital> no
13:03:04 <alinefm> #topic Status
13:03:06 <alinefm> #info Please provide your status using the #info command: #info [<project] <nickname> <status>
13:03:24 <alinefm> #info alinefm sent patch to fix logrotate issue on user log activity
13:03:30 <samhenri> #info kimchi samhenri currently working on Storage Volume management v6
13:03:41 <alinefm> #info alinefm sent patch to set serial session timeout the same of wok session timeout
13:04:02 <pvital> #info [Wok] pvital submitted patch "Log error when using tee arg on run_command."
13:04:02 <pvital> #info [Ginger] pvital submitted patch-set "Power Firmware Update fixes"
13:04:02 <pvital> #info [Ginger] pvital submitted patch "Print capabilities when environment is dev"
13:04:02 <pvital> #info [Wok] pvital is investigating some performance issues in wokd (high CPU consumption when idle)
13:04:02 <pvital> #info [Wok] pvital is working on Kimchi issue #78 (actually a Wok issue) - make async task stoppable
13:04:04 <pvital> #info [Wok] [Kimchi] [Ginger*] pvital reviewed patches
13:04:05 <peterpennings> #info[gingerbase] peterpennings is working on some improvements and corrections on selected packages
13:04:07 <danielhb> #info [*] danielhb reviewed and applied patches
13:04:23 <danielhb> #info [Ginger]  danielhb finished SR-IOV fixes
13:06:02 <lcorreia> #info [kimchi] lcorreia got upstream patch for handling libvirt event ENOSPC
13:06:02 <lcorreia> #info [kimchi] lcorreia sent V1 to fix vm name conflicts after snapshots are created
13:06:02 <lcorreia> #info [kimchi] lcorreia working to fix broken tests in V2 of fix vm name conflicts after snapshots are created
13:08:17 <alinefm> ramonn, rotru anything else?
13:08:57 <rotru> #info [wok] rotru  modified notification backend, exposing delete notification function and fixing issues in get function
13:10:52 <rotru> #info [kimchi] rotru found and fixed a problem when starting Kimchi from command line and Libvirt service is not running. Sent fixes to avoid errors and allow kimchi start flawlessly, then restore itself when libvirt service is back
13:12:53 <rotru> #info [kimchi] rotru Sent patches to fix problems with notifications alerts in window tabs. Notifications were not persistent among tabs or were displayed more than once. [patch is in v2 but was not accepted yet due to discussions about best approach (like use browser notifications)]
13:14:18 <rotru> #info [kimchi] rotru finished and sent V1 of basic Plugins Manager feature. [alinefm reviewed and there are changes to do. I will send a v2 soon]
13:15:11 <rotru> alinefm, thats all from my side
13:15:53 <alinefm> rotru, thanks!
13:16:22 <alinefm> rotru, about the browser notifications, apart of that we have discussed to have a unique section in the wok page to display notification
13:16:56 <rotru> alinefm, well remembered
13:17:20 <alinefm> rotru, are you going to do that?
13:17:24 <ramonn> #info [ginger] ramonn merged patch about spec guideline compliant
13:17:35 <rotru> alinefm,  yes
13:17:45 <alinefm> rotru, ok - thanks
13:17:52 <ramonn> #info [wok] ramonn investigating issues with login when network is down
13:18:22 <alinefm> anything else?
13:19:17 <rotru> nope
13:19:44 <alinefm> moving on...
13:19:48 <alinefm> #topic Open Discussion
13:20:03 <alinefm> today would be the official code freeze for 2.2 releases
13:20:17 <alinefm> but I'd like to have packages update and storage volume management on it
13:20:31 <alinefm> peterpennings, samhenri, when do you think you are done with those tasks?
13:20:33 <alinefm> still today?
13:21:39 <samhenri> alinefm i can deliver a patch today, not sure about peterpennings but I'll take a look once I finish the v6 patch
13:23:00 <alinefm> rotru, the same for you related to the plugins management api
13:23:29 <rotru> alinefm, do you want the V2 today ?
13:24:07 <alinefm> rotru, I'd like to know if we will get it into 2.2 or not
13:24:25 <rotru> alinefm,  I think we should get it in 2.2
13:24:42 <samhenri> alinefm it looks like the only thing left is a minor CSS bug to fix, I think the same problem happens with Ginger Network tabs so I'll probably write a patch to fix this and it will fix the selected packages minor issues
13:24:44 <rotru> alinefm,  at least beackend
13:24:44 <alinefm> the code freeze is today, but if you, samhenri and peterpennings say, you will get it by tomorrow, I am fine to postpone the code freeze to get all in
13:25:18 <alinefm> samhenri, ok
13:25:19 <alinefm> rotru, yeap
13:25:29 <rotru> alinefm, ok for me
13:27:31 <alinefm> any other topic for today?
13:28:02 <danielhb> I have
13:28:29 <alinefm> danielhb, go ahead
13:28:48 <danielhb> alinefm, we do not have Chandra or any Z folks here apparently, but they are proposing a UI redesign of Ginger tabs and I am very inclined to discuss and go forward with it
13:29:47 <alinefm> danielhb, please, elaborate =)
13:30:01 <alinefm> which changes are being proposed?
13:30:07 <danielhb> alinefm, basically, our current section/accordion design is 'not good' when you have a lot of sections in the same tab and they have big content to show
13:31:08 <danielhb> alinefm, for example the system services tab. We have 2 features there, sysmodules and sysservices. Both are quite large. If I decide to see the services, then "ok let's see the modules now", I have to scroll down quite a bit
13:32:15 <danielhb> alinefm, the proposal is to  change the layout of Ginger tabs for something like addiing a left panel with categories, leaving the rest of the screen to the actual content. This is still under discussion, I will ask Chandra to create an RFC for that in the ML, but I really liked the idea
13:33:04 <danielhb> alinefm, this can also solve some issues with "tab overcrowding" people are reporting in Github
13:33:26 <samhenri> danielhb i was going to propose an arrow to scroll to the top or the bottom of the screen but I think a sidebar could work for both this and the tab overcrowding
13:33:47 <danielhb> alinefm, but, again, this is a Ginger change only, perhaps Gingerbase too (Updates tab has the same problem)
13:33:57 <samhenri> in my tests with a full hd screen the tabs are ok but with a small screen resolution the second navbar wrap to a new line
13:33:58 <danielhb> samhenri, yeah that's what I think too
13:34:44 <samhenri> in the first RFCs e-mails for the secondary nav we had some mockups for sidebars
13:34:47 <alinefm> danielhb, samhenri is the proposal related to the tab content or to the second tab level?
13:35:11 <samhenri> alinefm I think we can work on both
13:35:19 <danielhb> alinefm, I think it solves both issues
13:35:24 <alinefm> and yeap! definitively we need to mockup to make the visualization on how the tab will look like before any code
13:35:46 <samhenri> we don't have to remove the collapsible panels and show only one of them
13:35:48 <alinefm> samhenri, danielhb so that sidebar menu would be a tree menu?
13:35:57 <samhenri> but the titles could be displayed in a tree menu like sidebar
13:36:22 <danielhb> alinefm, but the actual proposal was made on this github https://github.com/kimchi-project/wok/issues/120
13:36:26 <samhenri> alinefm yes
13:36:56 <danielhb> alinefm, yeah, a sidebar with a tree like menu. We can put the whole ginger plug-in in one single tab with this layout
13:37:11 <danielhb> alinefm, not saying that this is what will happen, just about the possibilities
13:37:27 <alinefm> samhenri, danielhb all content into one page?
13:37:36 <danielhb> alinefm, it's a very flexible layout and will standardize how Ginger and Gingerbase will show content
13:38:09 <alinefm> danielhb, samhenri if it is also about the second tab level, it will involve all plugins
13:39:39 <samhenri> alinefm danielhb i think ginger and gingerbase panels could stay the same, but we add a sidebar that shows the current page title and the panel titles as a third level and once the user clicks, it would hide/show the panel
13:39:39 <danielhb> alinefm, I don't see why it does. We're not proposping "let's get rid of the second tab level". What I would like to do is to (1) be able to have a sidebar instead of opening/closing sections and (2) do not have to spam the second tab level for every new Ginger category
13:41:07 <alinefm> samhenri, so keep the second nav level and add a third one?
13:41:25 <samhenri> well, i think we need some design changes to all navigation levels
13:41:39 <samhenri> right now we only have three plugins + ginger for system z
13:41:54 <samhenri> but suppose other people start developing new plugins / new first-level tabs
13:42:07 <danielhb> alinefm, for example, right now we have "WoK", "Host" and "virtualization". In Host we have 6 other tabs. We can have for example "Dashboard", "Updates" and "Administration" , where Administration would hold all Ginger features
13:42:09 <samhenri> I think we could adapt what some people call "mega drop-down menu"
13:42:55 <samhenri> here are some examples:
13:42:57 <samhenri> https://vimeo.com/166812597
13:42:57 <danielhb> alinefm, now I see that samhenri would like to padronize Kimchi UI in this work too. We can discuss if it's viable, but I do not see it as a blocker to solve the UI problems in Ginger
13:43:05 <samhenri> https://vimeo.com/166812599
13:43:09 <samhenri> https://vimeo.com/166812605
13:43:14 <alinefm> danielhb, I see it as a blocker
13:43:27 <alinefm> we need to define the redesign and do it for every plugin at once
13:43:35 <danielhb> alinefm, why? it's not standardize today
13:43:45 <alinefm> otherwise, we will do it for ginger and when starting solving other issue we will need a new redesign for ginger
13:43:46 <danielhb> alinefm, Kimchi does not use accordings that shows/hide contents for example
13:44:37 <danielhb> alinefm, Kimchi UI got redesigned from the old UI to the new one, Ginger UI kept the same old design. We need to address this and IMO this is an isolated Ginger issue
13:45:04 <alinefm> danielhb, it is bigger than a Ginger issue
13:45:11 <alinefm> it how wok deals with navigation
13:45:17 <danielhb> alinefm, we can discuss it further in the ML, together with samhenri and the rest, but I do not think that we need the same layout for all WoK plug-ins
13:45:25 <alinefm> samhenri, do you mean that 'All sections' entry?
13:46:06 <alinefm> danielhb, do you remember how different was the Ginger UI and Kimchi UI before?
13:46:18 <alinefm> danielhb, about the style and so
13:46:30 <danielhb> alinefm, Kimchi UI was completely different. Ginger UI is the same old UI with different widgets
13:46:31 <alinefm> danielhb, I wouldn't have to go back to that phase
13:46:50 <alinefm> s/have/like
13:47:12 <danielhb> alinefm, ok, so this is now a different discussion
13:47:36 <danielhb> alinefm, do we want all WoK plug-ins to follow the exact same layout choices?
13:47:52 <rotru> alinefm,  danielhb  I thought that Kimchi and Ginger would use Wok UI standards
13:47:57 <alinefm> danielhb, at least those controlled by us, yes
13:48:09 <alinefm> rotru, agree
13:48:42 <rotru> samhenri, alinefm,  danielhb  I thought that any plugin would have to use UIs from Wok
13:48:48 <alinefm> what I am seeing here is: danielhb exposed an Ginger issue related to how Ginger displays its content > samhenri pointed a bigger issue on how wok deals with navigation
13:48:58 <alinefm> solving samhenri issue, probably will solve GInger issue
13:49:03 <samhenri> alinefm yes
13:49:22 <alinefm> but solving samhenri issue will involve all plugins managed by this community
13:49:44 <alinefm> so let's do it once and get all done
13:49:50 <alinefm> that is my opinion
13:49:53 <danielhb> alinefm, samhenri and now I will be the selfish maintainer here. Ok, there is a big picture at play here. What about my horrible UIs?
13:50:26 <alinefm> danielhb, do you mean about those issue I open for redesign?
13:50:35 <samhenri> by now I think we could implement a sidebar just for Ginger
13:50:37 <danielhb> alinefm, samhenri this redesign will take *a lot* of  time. Meanwhile Ginger will have a horrible user experience?
13:50:44 <alinefm> that does not follow the standard wok UI style?!
13:50:49 <samhenri> this wouldn't take a lot of time and effort to develop
13:50:49 <danielhb> samhenri, yes, please
13:51:09 <alinefm> danielhb, well, first of you, you accepted them =P
13:51:09 <samhenri> and it could also be used to evaluate usability with the community
13:51:10 <danielhb> samhenri, that's all I am asking
13:51:16 <samhenri> once we collect feedback from ginger
13:51:23 <samhenri> we can work on Wok and Kimchi
13:51:30 <danielhb> samhenri, excellent. I like this idea
13:51:33 <samhenri> and bring a definitive solution
13:51:37 <alinefm> danielhb, I agree we need some redesign on ginger side but it will take some time to be done
13:51:56 <danielhb> samhenri, we can see how it goes and then evaluate if we want it spread out to all plug-ins or not
13:52:10 <danielhb> samhenri, instead of doing everything at once and then "ok that's not working"
13:52:31 <rotru> danielhb,  why dont Ginger creates its own menu ?
13:52:44 <danielhb> rotru, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE HERE
13:52:47 <samhenri> exactly, because for now Kimchi and Wok tabs don't need a sidebar to fill the pages
13:52:50 <danielhb> rotru, hahahahhahaha
13:53:46 <rotru> each plugin should take care of what is inside its tab .... for me the only requirement is ONE tab with plugin name
13:54:22 <rotru> alinefm, samhenri  lets be realistic here, wok does not provide a good UI framework now
13:54:51 <alinefm> danielhb, samhenri if you don't change the high nav level, ok for me
13:54:55 <danielhb> samhenri, I will create the RFC in Ginger ML and then ask for feedback. Probably people will be very thrilled to have sidebars in Gigner
13:54:59 <alinefm> if so, it will need to be done for all the plugins
13:55:17 <alinefm> rotru, what do you mean about that?
13:55:34 <alinefm> maybe what is missing from your view to wok be a good web framework?
13:56:31 <rotru> alinefm,  no , I am not saying wok is not a good web framework.... I am saying it does not provide a good UI support
13:57:25 <alinefm> because.... ?
13:57:31 <rotru> alinefm,  samhenri  with new UI design and wok, I thought Wok would provide widgets , screens, and other stuffs to help plugins create its own windows
13:57:42 <danielhb> rotru, but it does
13:57:58 <rotru> danielhb, show me the documentation
13:57:59 <danielhb> rotru, problem is that in Ginger case we're not using it right due to the nature of the content
13:58:07 <danielhb> rotru, hahahahahaha
13:58:13 <danielhb> rotru, touche
13:59:07 <samhenri> since wok ui was developed using Bootstrap, it is almost safe to say that you can use Bootstrap documentation as guide and Wok styles will still be applied
13:59:27 <rotru> danielhb,  you have to use multiple sections in Ginger, right ? what is the support that Wok provides for this ?
13:59:28 <samhenri> but some widgets we were not able to discard from wok because we had to extend Bootstrap functionalty
13:59:33 <samhenri> Wok Windows and Alerts for instance
14:00:07 <samhenri> rotru Ginger multiple sections are using Bootstrap panel groups and Accordions
14:00:22 <danielhb> rotru, if you're asking for something like "WoK UI framework, this is my content. Please generate a default UI with that so I can tune it", then we do not have it
14:00:43 <samhenri> if you look the markup it is almost the same: http://www.w3schools.com/bootstrap/bootstrap_panels.asp
14:01:01 <rotru> samhenri, I do not want to here bootstrap more ! I want to here "Wok Panel  Groups"
14:01:16 <rotru> * I want to hear "Wok Panel  Groups"
14:01:42 <rotru> * samhenri, I do not want to HEAR bootstrap more ! I want to HEAR "Wok Panel  Groups"
14:01:50 <rotru> "Wok Table"
14:01:59 <rotru> "Wok Warning Window"
14:02:11 <samhenri> it is not like a MVV framework like Angular that we can create custom HTML tags that will automatically fill the attributes from the rest API
14:02:55 <samhenri> like <wok-panel-group title="Whatever" filter="true" collapse="true" model="whatever"></wok-panel-group>
14:03:02 <rotru> samhenri,  that where I would like to achieve !! So, wok does not provide a UI framework
14:03:32 <danielhb> rotru, I think the effort in making such framework is enormous
14:03:43 <samhenri> when I read "Wok framework" i don't think as an UI framework
14:03:51 <alinefm> rotru, well, it will have a side effect
14:03:52 <samhenri> I think as a KVM HTML interface management framework
14:03:53 <danielhb> rotru, it would be very nice, but I don't think we have the manpower for that
14:04:11 <alinefm> so a UI developer will need to learn about a new UI framework to start developing to Wok?
14:04:24 <samhenri> I do think that some day we could benefit from a MVV framework
14:04:29 <rotru> danielhb, alinefm  , samhenri  yes, yes, I know it should be hard
14:04:30 <alinefm> wsn't it better to rely on bootstrap and get all bootstrap devels in?
14:04:53 <samhenri> but that would require to port all JS from all plugins into that framework code
14:04:55 <danielhb> alinefm, well the UI dev kinda of have to know WoK to do the UI for WoK today .....
14:04:55 <rotru> danielhb, alinefm  so let every plugin do what they want
14:05:13 <danielhb> rotru, YEAH. I WANT FREEDOM FOR MY UI. #OCCUPYWOK
14:05:25 <rotru> danielhb, alinefm  why ginger and kimchi  must be equal ?
14:05:43 <rotru> danielhb, alinefm  why ginger and kimchi  must be similar ?
14:06:08 <alinefm> rotru, they only need to have the same UI style
14:07:01 <danielhb> alinefm, I think rotru has a good point. The UI style should be granted by using the same color themes, widgets and so on. The plug-ins do not need to have the same layout, as it does not have today
14:07:17 <alinefm> my personal opinion is on that way we have a more professional tool
14:07:39 <danielhb> alinefm, rotru samhenri what we can and should do is to write some UI guidelines for WoK plug-ins. But this is yet another big discussion to have and we're out of time already
14:08:03 <alinefm> danielhb, I am not saying about layout! I am saying about style
14:08:32 <samhenri> danielhb we could fork Bootstrap documentation and load wok styles over bootstrap default styles, at least will make people familiar with it
14:08:39 <alinefm> danielhb, as you point, kimchi and ginger have different layouts but using (in most of time) the same style
14:08:59 <danielhb> samhenri, yeah that would be a start
14:09:02 <alinefm> samhenri, is it that easy to do?
14:10:23 <samhenri> alinefm danielhb i'm not sure because we have some styles that are specific for Ginger or Kimchi
14:10:29 <rotru> samhenri, alinefm , danielhb  sorry if I had the wrong idea about the "Wok UI Framework" ...
14:10:53 <samhenri> alinefm danielhb we changed Glyphicons for FontAwesome and we don't use Bootstrap tables
14:10:58 <rotru> samhenri, alinefm , danielhb   I really thought that Wok would provide tons of widgets
14:13:17 <rotru> * samhenri, alinefm , danielhb   I really thought that THE PROPOSAL was Wok provide tons of widgets. But I see that this is difficult
14:14:52 <alinefm> rotru, wok will provide the minimal infrastructure to create plugins
14:15:01 <samhenri> rotru but it does provide some widgets, like I said, instead of using old jQuery-UI widgets we moved them to extend Bootstrap widgets
14:15:13 <alinefm> on sometimes it will provide widgets others only style changes...
14:15:51 <alinefm> guys, we are over time! I will finish the meeting but we can continue discussing about that
14:16:01 <alinefm> thanks for joining and for the great discussions!
14:16:02 <rotru> alinefm, yeap
14:16:03 <alinefm> #endmeeting